PyLadies Panel Session. Tech Illusions and the Unbalanced Society: Finding Solutions for a Better Future

Speaker 1 [00:02]

Welcome to the panel session organized by PyLadies.

Speaker 2 [00:08]

Before we start, just a short

Speaker 1 [00:09]

just a short announcement that we are having social events and

Speaker 2 [00:14]

and not everyone

Speaker 1 [00:15]

Not everyone picked up their bands, so find the time to do that.

Speaker 2 [00:19]

to do that before it starts.

Speaker 1 [00:21]

And with that, I was positive.

Speaker 2 [00:22]

Without further ado, I will.

Speaker 1 [00:23]

there ado, I will...

Speaker 2 [00:24]

the turnover to

Speaker 1 [00:25]

And over to Paula.

Speaker 3 [00:28]

Yeah, hello, everybody. I'm not hosting the panel session, but I will introduce how the panel session was born. So, traditionally, since last year, there's a PyLadies panel, and it's normally about diversity topics. And this time, we ask around the community, And here you see the selfie from the panelist, Paloma, who's a very engaged member of the PyLadies Berlin community, offered to organize. And they had just organized an event in PyLadies Berlin about the book Hacking Diversity. So it's all very fresh. And she's going to show the book, I think, yeah, so here's Paloma, exactly. She has it here, and I've been told... She has it here even, and she's going to do something with that. I've been told also that it will be a panel discussion, but it is a wish for that everybody participates. So, Alina and me will be down with the mics, and everybody is encouraged to participate right away. I mean, not waiting until the end to make questions, but if you have an opinion, if have a question just raise your hand Alina and me will go to you and without more Chris Paloma and she will continue thank you

Speaker 2 [02:17]

So, I wanted to, this is how I thought about how this could be. As Paula mentioned, we did have kind of a book club session around this book, which it was quite important for me to rethink my own work as a... Can you hear me well? Cool, around my work on diversity advocacy. And I will be giving away this book for the most upvoted questions. So keep your Slido in hand. We will also use the Slido to ask you some questions so you can anonymous answer some things. I will also ask you to raise your hands for some yes or no questions. And if you feel the urge to express your opinion, this should be a sort of like a fishbowl style. You are more than welcome to join this stage. And in kind of bigger stages, this is a little more awkward, but I like the format a lot. It gives us all the chance to give us our opinion and discuss further. And discuss further to me is an interesting concept. is why this panel is about, is the chance for us to connect with communities from New York, from Berlin, from other chapters in Germany, to reflect upon the work we're doing as diversity advocates. Everyone, slide those in your hand. So now that I introduce what we will be doing here, and just a little synopsis on the book if you don't know about it, it It is deep, really academic research and sociological research on what happened and what the work on diversity advocacy, especially in hackerspaces in between, I think, 2005 to 2010, mostly in US. But the end of the book, and I will give a spoiler, is that we will not save the world. And this is kind of a... But it's good to know. It's when we know our boundaries, and this is what this discussion is about, is how much the work we're doing is effective, and what can we do to improve it, what our limitations are, and how can we work together with others to improve that. So the slightly question that I start for you, the audience, is, when you think... Don't think too much. Pop in. When you hear diversity, what is the first word that comes to your mind? And then I will ask you, and that's the last question before I come in and start the talk. When someone presents to you as a diversity advocate, what's the first thing that your head labels automatically? And please don't try to give me the right answer. This is not about the right answer. It's really understanding our bias and our understanding what that is. Oh, do I have to change anything on the slide?

Speaker 4 [06:13]

You might be able to just type something as a question and then we can maybe take it there Okay

Speaker 5 [06:24]

Nothing like technical issues at a technical conference. We have to be a little light-hearted about that, right?

Speaker 2 [06:31]

So while you're typing, I'll ask our lovely panelists to introduce themselves.

Speaker 5 [06:39]

right? Oh, I'm first. Hi, all. I'm Erin McHale Staples. I'm a senior developer community advocate at Label Studio. We're a labeling platform. Outside of that, I'm a university instructor as well as a stand-up comedian.

Speaker 2 [06:55]

Cool. We keep it. Yeah.

Speaker 5 [06:58]

technical person by trade, I crafted my teeth in journalism.

Speaker 4 [07:02]

That's really cool. I'm a senior data scientist working in Berlin. I work for relatively small startup I mainly focus on the field of NLP and use a lot of Python and

Speaker 1 [07:21]

Hi, everyone. I am Linh. I am a data engineer at Mozilla. I live in Brooklyn, New York.

Speaker 5 [07:33]

Brooklyn, New York, like, whoo, whoo, whoo, New York Pie Ladies chapter.

Speaker 1 [07:38]

I've been at Mozilla for two years now. I started at Mozilla after finishing my internship, which is a program that helps encourage people from underrepresented backgrounds to participate more in the open source community. I've been with Mozilla for two years. A lot has changed since then. A lot that I've learned about the industry. I hope that me being here and sharing about my experience and observations can help uncover some blind spots about the industry. So yeah, grateful to be here.

Speaker 2 [08:10]

Thank you

Speaker 6 [08:12]

Hi, my name is Hanna Bohle. I'm a data scientist and software developer at a small company called IntBlick.io. I used to be a computational neuroscience PhD working in academia with statistical modeling and data analysis. And I transitioned into tech a couple of years ago. Last year, I gave a talk on transitioning from science to data science at PyCon. It's on YouTube, so if anybody wants to leave academia, you can watch it. Yeah, and I'm a member of PyLadies in Berlin, here, with Doreen and Luma, and I'm a big fan of the PyLadies community.

Speaker 2 [08:55]

Thank you and Paloma Olivia, I work for sauce labs here in Berlin based As an open source developer advocate and I'm also one of the co-organizers of Pilates Berlin and just so we know our questions I will read it out loud. What does diversity and a diversity advocate means to most of you? So I hear equal chances races LGBTQI plus, inclusion, thick skin, diversity data, separation, underrated, oppression, biodiversity, inclusion, inclusion, gender, diversity washing. Not really diversity. Whoa, they must be brave. inclusion, inequality, organized civil society, voice of representation, we are all different and that's awesome, rainbow, resilience, representative, equity, gender, bias, inclusion. So thinking a little bit, I would like to hear from the panel, if If you think diversity for you, what does it mean, the word today, and where do you think the problems of labeling diversity brings to us? Maybe we can start with Hannah. Can you say that again, please? When we talk about diversity today, especially in the context of open source and technology, do you think that mostly represent and what do you think are the problems of this regular broad understanding where we should be

Speaker 1 [10:50]

be chilling.

Speaker 6 [10:53]

You mean like what what's the the current problem with diversity in open source or in tech in general? I think it's definitely a problem with gender but also like with other underrepresented groups like every self-identified underrepresented group like sexual orientation Ethnicity race Yeah, like socio-economic background, and there are so many minorities which are not represented in open source, and also if you think of very European-centristic, and North America is very represented, but where's the rest of the world? I think it's a very broad topic, yeah, and a lot to do. And there's a talk by Maren Westermann tomorrow on that, so I think it's definitely a topic where you can give a talk about, so it's difficult to say in two sentences.

Speaker 2 [12:02]

Lynn, in your experience and from your personal context, where do you think lies the issues of saying diversity?

Speaker 1 [12:14]

Okay, from my experience. So to me, diversity is about freedom. It's about feeling safe enough in an environment so that I can fully express who I am without being scared of, oh, like, because I am the minority, if I fully show up as who I am, will that be a safe thing? Will that hurt my career in any way? Would that hurt my social capital in any way? And to reflect back in my own experience, when I first joined the tech industry, and I don't have a university degree, so not only I look different than a lot of my colleagues, I also come from a different socioeconomic background. So in the beginning, I had to learn, like, how to behave the right way, how to act the right way, how can I use the right languages. So a lot of my colleagues are, like, very well educated. So the language they use, some of them I'm not super familiar with. So there's like a whole process of me learning how to fit in, right? But that was like, I was happy to do all of that work because I felt lucky, I felt lucky that I made it in. But then I spoke with a colleague of mine that I really, really respected. And I shared my enthusiasm about, oh, like, I'm so happy to be here, like, by me breaking in the industry, I could open doors for more people to enter after me who look like me, who experience life the same way I do. But that person told me that, Lynn, in the beginning, you should just focus on your technical work because you already look so different than the rest of the people here. In a way, subconsciously, people already have a certain bias against you. So if you want to help other people who are like you, first prove your worth by showing your technical ability, and then once you have, once you move up the ladder, use that power to drive the initiative forward. And that made a lot of sense to me when she said that. But in a way it's also a sad thing that I have to shut down a part of who I am, a part of me that I'm really proud of, just so I can help things move forward. And it is a dilemma that I still have to face to this day. So diversity, again, back to what I said earlier, it's about freedom and the safety to feel free.

Speaker 2 [15:08]

I want to go back to that topic because I think you bring a lot of things that we can problematize.

Speaker 1 [15:14]

A lot of topics. Oh, no.

Speaker 2 [15:16]

I want to go back to that, but just before, I would like to hear Doreen's opinion about

Speaker 1 [15:16]

I still have to watch that.

Speaker 2 [15:24]

where do you think lies the main issues of diversity today, not becoming a buzzword and really having a meaning to understand what we're doing here.

Speaker 4 [15:34]

Yeah, so I think the problem is that some wear a different stance on how people think we are, like what the current state is. Some people think it's still a huge problem, and some people think it's kind of solved already. So some people say, oh, we don't really need to pay attention anymore in Germany, because theoretically females have the same rights as men. But is that really the case? It's just, I think, combining the different viewpoints and, like, going over this discussion over and over again and realizing, oh, there's a lot of work that still needs to be done in order for people to feel safe so that, like, a minority group doesn't have to prove itself more than other people do because that's not fair. Nobody should say you have to prove yourself more just because you're a minority. And I think there is a lot of work still to be done for everybody to be equal. And also the main issue, as you referenced, is that we're not on the same page as where the issues lie and also like how far we still have to go.

Speaker 2 [16:46]

We also need to go back and unpack a lot of that.

Speaker 5 [16:52]

I'm going to clap for that, yeah. Oh, yeah? I'm going to clap for everybody. I'm going to clap. I'm over here.

Speaker 2 [17:03]

And Nery, from your perspective, from your background and experiences, where do you think to you the main issues of tackling diversity lies today?

Speaker 5 [17:12]

We make a lot of assumptions. And I think there's the whole saying, you know, don't make assumptions making an ass out of you and me. But to kind of iterate on that, I am a very white I am white. We're just going to say that. Look at this. I mean, that's pretty obvious, guys. I'm a white heteronormative passing neurodiverse individual. I am a queer woman. And that being said, it puts me in a situation where I'm very fortunate to have had privileges to place me where I'm at today, but it's not perfect. My colleagues and I have been at my last role specifically, I was making $25,000 less than my male colleague with the same amount of experience on paper, and we shared offer letters. And that sucked. three and a half months to get that salary equity on par and things like that and I will even commend those of you in this room this is that most empty I've seen this room in any talk we don't want to talk about diversity it's uncomfortable and sometimes I don't even feel like I'm the right person to talk about it as a white you know heteronormative passing female but how many times we referred to it as having enough of a certain quota in our organization or you know they're great at it if only they were a female if only they were a person of color I would love to invite them when did it just become this is the right person for the job and how are we extending an arm to the opportunities and this is like getting past that and I think that's what we need to start thinking about

Speaker 2 [19:01]

I'm wondering what should we tackle first.

Speaker 5 [19:03]

I think, can we?

Speaker 1 [19:05]

Can I, like...

Speaker 5 [19:06]

Because I had I really enjoyed what Lynn said about the freedom to be yourself And I think that we say that explicitly like how many times have we all been in a workplace? That they're like, oh, it's great. These people are wonderful. It's free to be me and then it's like just kidding

Speaker 6 [19:23]

Ha, ha, ha.

Speaker 5 [19:24]

But if that's okay, unless anybody wants to take it another direction

Speaker 2 [19:29]

So yeah, this is a, so I'm formulating a directly question for that, for us to unravel that. And what we were speaking before, and I was wondering, like for this table to share with everyone, if we, specifically that case that being brought, like if you are on your workspace And people say, what does it mean when someone says you should prove yourself as very technical before? And I will speak some things that come to my mind why this is problematic. First of all, it is in the hierarchy, and that's really clear in open source, which is my main area. Although we know we depend on an ecosystem and not just in the technical part, there is a gigantic difference in the recognition of people that are more technical than the others. Gigantic. You do not even speak about it. This is how automatically we think. So you're being judged by how you're delivering, although if you're a software engineer, for example, how do you rate someone as senior? I think this is a common issue in the industry that you cannot compare two seniors in two different places and two different places. So it's like you have to prove you're doing your work right. What does it mean? So that's the first question that comes to my mind. And the second, like, that would like to, for you both, for you all to problematize is, on top of that, so that's a problem. What does it mean that I have to prove myself on my work? And why is that different than fostering a place that brings benefits to everyone for being a safe space? maybe Doreen would you like to put some

Speaker 4 [21:22]

Yeah, so for the senior, junior kind of thing, and technical expertise especially, so in order to or what seniors should do, in my opinion, is mentor other people to learn to be good at their job, to help them out if there are problems, but that's not necessarily what people get promoted for, the same for managing positions, so I think often in tech people get promoted for, oh, they have written the most code. Let's promote them. But that's not really what the qualities that you might need in like a senior position, because it's more about empathy and helping others than helping yourself succeed, in a way. Yeah. So that's my take on it.

Speaker 2 [22:16]

Nin, would you like to like speak more on how that maybe, how reflected on that it was your personal experience that reflected upon and what is the, yeah, what is the, start to uncover all the issues surrounding that, because that's an opinion, it's a valid opinion. You should focus on that, but why is that different than taking care of the environment, the space and bringing others up?

Speaker 1 [22:41]

Yeah. I think at the time when I was given that advice, I was so new to industry, excuse me, that I didn't really think whether or not that was a good advice to follow. and should I but like since like like work in general like being at work like work is already a complex environment to navigate and I feel it for all of us not just you know only for people of color people from marginalized communities so there are so many things that play there and so in a way like me being given that advice, oh, I should just focus on your technical work, that helps simplify the process for me in a bit. But then I realized that my work is not divorced from who I am, if you know what I mean. I have to feel safe, sure enough for me to be successful, to feel like I'm I can learn. So I can't just shut down a part of me and be like, okay, I'm just going to code, program, show up in meetings, cold face the rest of my colleagues. That's not possible for me. In order for me to learn and to improve technically and from junior to senior, I need to be able to show up fully. So that, like, some examples that I can think of is that I am from Vietnam, and it is a very collectivist culture, and there's, like, certain hierarchies in, like, the social environment, so in general, I would feel, like, I feel less comfortable with speaking just for the sake of speaking in meetings, for example, or, like, I'm usually more reserved. It's not because I don't have anything to say. It's more that I respect the people in the room and I want to hear everyone. And there's a saying in Vietnamese culture is that you should listen to the air. So when someone speaks to you, listen to what they say, but also to the air. Look for if there's more layers to what they're trying to convey to you. But then, because I work for a US, because I work for Mozilla, which is a US-heavy company, in a way I feel like that side of me is not really welcome. So I have to force myself to be like the rest of my Western colleagues, and a lot of days I feel like, but I was hired because people told me that your diversity is your strength. We want people with your experience. We want your perspective. But then I have to shut down who I am just so I can move up the ladder. Then what's the point? Is that really my strength if I have to erase my identity? So if my company wants me to succeed, if the industry wants me to succeed, they can't tell me just focus on your technical ability. They have to, And I don't know the right answer yet, this is a hard question to answer, but they have to show me that it's safe for me to be who I am and in whatever capacity you show up, we will try to help you succeed because we've been doing that for the majority of the people in the industry. We can do the same for you.

Speaker 4 [26:42]

That was really cool. Thank you. Yeah for sharing. Oh, yeah also like to maybe touch up on that for You it's maybe also you take a lot of effort into trying to fit in and that kind of takes away Energy that you can put into your work

Speaker 1 [26:58]

It is mentally exhausting, very taxing work every day.

Speaker 4 [26:58]

meant

Speaker 1 [27:02]

That's the invisible work that people talk about when they speak about people of color being in a white majority space. There's a lot of work that people don't know. And we're not doing the same amount of work. Yeah.

Speaker 4 [27:14]

MS. Thank you.

Speaker 2 [27:16]

This brings me to a thought that is, so we speak a lot about diversity and I think many people are already kind of tired to hear, ah, diversity again. Or it's like, what's the point of it? And quoting some things heard, like, well, if we already achieved 30% of women in this space, why do we still need to do more? There's so much to be done. But really, should we stop talking about it, and we are still talking about it, why so? Why is it still needed to reinforce that? But if we're having pushbacks, what we are doing wrong or what should we be doing to match the speech and the ideology of we need to stand up for diversity, but you need to feed in. If we're talking about diversity, how we're speaking about it, but what changes we need to do to match and create the safe space that Lynn was talking about.

Speaker 5 [28:24]

Oh, wow. That's, like, a hard, like, I think it's a hard one intentionally. I've been the only female at a company before. I am currently my immediate team is a team of two. I'm the only female on that team. It's a team of two. So I feel like that's it. Also, I just binary gender, which I don't like doing either. So that's another weird thing. But we need to To have the uncomfortable, icky conversations, and even the ones that make you want to squirm in your chair a little bit, myself included, no one's perfect. There's no bat in 100 at diversity. And I think that starts, and we have to keep having this conversation for a couple of reasons. One, y'all look around, there's empty seats here. If this was a true priority, we'd see this room packed. I think the other thing is we're still having experiences time and time again of people not feeling welcome. If you're a woman in the room, how many times have you been asked to take notes? Or because I'm Erin, that's a gender neutral name in many parts of the world, someone asked for my receptionist once. I asked if I was a receptionist for Aaron once, and I was like, that was pretty cool. It's instances like this that we just don't seem to take seriously anymore. And sure, we hit a quota, but what is the quota? What did that achieve? It doesn't change the systems.

Speaker 2 [30:06]

Do you have any takes on that, Hannah?

Speaker 6 [30:10]

Yes, I think to think about diversity is also very important because you really have to think about your own prejudices and biases. And I think we all have them, me included, of course. And I was just thinking about a friend who told me that she was asked by a female project lead that she should peer program more with her colleagues because she could maybe improve. And she was actually better than them, so she was their lead. And I think maybe it didn't even occur to her that maybe she could, like, why would she, like, propose this to her? So, and I think this is, like, something which happens often and might happen to everybody. And, yeah, I think it's... Yeah, it's very important to think about that.

Speaker 2 [31:29]

I want to do an exercise with our audience and ask you to maybe close your eyes for you to really give the opinion that you really have. And I hope the cameras are not recording the public for that. And the question is, so if you want to close your eyes, just to make sure you're not judging anyone around this. Just the panelists will judge you. No, I'm kidding. If someone spent part of their job, your colleagues, talking about issues around diversity, do you judge them? Is there part of you that thinks, oh, damn, are they coming with that again instead of doing their job? I mean, do you have any bad judgment and prejudice toward that person? Please raise your hands if yes. Thank you. And the last question, please keep your eyes closed again. Do you think that this person spending their time thinking about this kind of efforts, which is extra work, do affect their career path? Thank you. I really appreciate you all. Can go back to the panel to problematize a little bit more of that. So those are the discussions we should be having. So by one hand, we know this is no-brainer. It is an issue. It's a current issue. We're not equal. There are many difference in this space. We still live under a patriarchy capitalist system, which implies a lot of the systemic issues that we face. That's not questionable. By the other hand, there is a friction in between speech, social justice push to improve, and how we do our day-by-day or daily jobs. The question is, places like PyLadies, which is what we're here to talk about, we try to tackle those issues, but we know about it, and this book is much about it, that we cannot solve all the issues, especially that the big companies or the technology that is so permissive in our daily lives brings also as issues. I would like to hear you from your experience being part of PyLadies and other advocacy programs. Which kind of tactics have you been using to try to balance this very unbalanced society? Hannah we can start with you

Speaker 6 [34:19]

You mean what the PyLadies did to help?

Speaker 2 [34:25]

Do you think that is an interesting... tactic or action that you personally did or saw that PyLadies helped in this problematic system.

Speaker 6 [34:39]

For me, it was really, really important when I was transitioning from academia to tech to be part of these communities also of women in machine learning and data science, which was also a meetup I went to, and yeah, PyLadies, of course, and to meet other women in tech who told me that you can do it, I can do it, so you can do it, too. It was really empowering for me, just to be surrounded by women, because in my day-to-day work, in my team, I'm the only woman currently, and it's something every woman in tech knows, how it feels, and you feel a bit alienated if you're the only woman.

Speaker 2 [35:30]

And Lynn, besides of PyLady, you mentioned Outreach Program, which if you don't know, it's one of the main and most non-recognized programs that gives a paid three-month internship for people to start contributing to open source, really targeting unrepresented people, people that are not represented in this space. In your experience, besides the program itself that launched your career in tech, is there any other action that you would like to mention?

Speaker 1 [36:06]

Any other actions?

Speaker 2 [36:10]

from this group, either PyLadies or the outreach that was fundamental for you?

Speaker 1 [36:14]

um yeah so okay so in the tech industry besides outreach um and so currently i'm doing a lot of like mentorship work to people from underprivileged backgrounds in my home country, Vietnam. And what I've observed so far is that, like too late really back to your question of what kind of tactics that can be helpful. Now that I'm in a different socioeconomic background, my social circle is different now. out with are not people from blue collar or, like, pink collar, feels like before. The conversations have changed a lot of that. And this is me admitting that, like, okay, I don't have a lot to relate to the people that I, like, not relate, but I don't have a lot of, like, similar daily life experiences to the people that I want to help anymore. And that kind of helps me realize that, okay, so in order to be a helpful and effective advocate for diversity, and through me trying to do this work with the communities that need help, but like I am not part of them anymore, is that this work is hard work. is diversity advocacy is hard work. It's not just intellectually challenging, it is emotionally, psychologically, and spiritually challenging. Because especially if you're doing good work, right? When people feel that they can trust you, people from underrepresented communities, they will come out of the woodwork in a way and tell you their experience because they trust that you could help them. And these things are usually are not the things that are covered in books or like scholarly articles or what-have-you. So you are asked to provide safe space for them and also figure out a way to help them. And that's a lot for for someone to bear. So I guess what I'm trying to say here is that like Like I have a lot of empathy and respect for people who are doing this work. I am not that actively Engaging myself. It's not like my job title But I can see like the work that people are doing tonight I just I said, please be kind on yourself Like take care of yourself in order to help the people you want to help you have to help yourself first Give yourself the space the time the emotional safety that you need So that you can provide that for others So that's why one tactic that people could use like take care of yourself everyone. It's really hard work

Speaker 2 [39:22]

Doreen, you have the floor.

Speaker 1 [39:29]

Do you have?

Speaker 2 [39:32]

I'm kind of paying attention to Slido, but yeah, I've been. But wait, wait, microphone go.

Speaker 7 [39:40]

mic check um because i thought it was so interesting what she just said about um she maybe i got it wrong but do you feel like you're not being authentic because you don't have the same background anymore as the people that you're coaching right now because you did have it in the past and you don't have i feel like you don't have to prove yourself now to be um you know authentic to help them because now you maybe moved up from your previous background or something that doesn't mean you still haven't experienced that so why why do you feel like right now you don't associate yourself with the same people you did before and it felt like you're kind of like not justifying it but you made it a point that you're not in that group anymore so it feels difficult to help those people because I don't know it was for me it's it's hard to understand why you made it a point but do you feel like you're not a part of that anymore um does it make Yeah, no.

Speaker 1 [40:36]

Yeah, no, that makes total sense. I think, excuse me, and I feel like if you're an immigrant or if you're like a minority and like a majority in any kind of environment, you can relate to this feeling that you don't really belong anywhere. So right now, if you ask me, oh, are you part of the elite, the coastal elite, like how like there's a lot of like talks about that in the U.S. media. No, I'm not. I'm not. I don't have a university degree. I make tech money, yes, but does that mean that I'm part of the group? Because in order to feel like I'm part of the group, I have to feel like people already accept me for who I am yet, and that is not the case right now, unfortunately. And what I meant earlier, so I'm helping people from underprivileged backgrounds in Vietnam, right? They would come to me with complaints about They can't even afford to put food on their table for just one meal. They can't even do that. I'm not in that position anymore. Or they would come and tell me about stuff that related to their family dramas and all of that. I now live in the U.S. And if you're not familiar, excuse me, I don't know. Well, thank you so much. And so Vietnam, like in the last century, there was like, Vietnam was in constant wars with like very big countries. So half of my family were killed in the Vietnam War. So there's a lot of intergenerational dramas that happen that you can't really escape, and that manifests as addiction, mental health issues, poverty, all of that stuff. When I was living back in Vietnam, that was the stuff that I have to face with lately. I can't just focus on what I want to focus. I have to also take care of those other things, my family, my daily responsibilities. But now I don't have to deal with that anymore. So when people come to me and be like, oh, that sucks, huh, like this and that, I can't be like, yeah, I know, I'm going through the same thing, because I'm not. So in order for me to be able to relate and provide a safe space for them, I have to forget my current reality that I'm living comfortably now in like a developed country and in a way re-dramatize myself, pull me back to the past so that I can be in the same space with them without making it look like I'm judging them or just trying to provide empty ears, if that makes sense. So that is hard work. I made it out, but now I have to go back to the old situation because I want to be there fully for the people that I'm helping. So back to your question, do I feel like, do I not identify with my past anymore? I think it's a good thing that I don't identify with that past anymore, but I also don't identify with the current reality anymore. So I'm in limbo, and this is the reality of a lot of people in the world right now. We don't fully feel like we belong anywhere. And back to the freedom to express who we are, right? That doesn't have to be a bad thing. Us not fitting in anywhere doesn't have to be a bad thing. If I can feel safe not belonging anywhere, then I don't have to try to fit in so much anywhere anywhere. me the energy to do the things that I really care about. I don't know if that answers your question.

Speaker 2 [44:32]

places like Berlin in New York specifically where Berlin the last time I checked we had a 30% that are not from Germany living in the city that adds on top of diversity which is usually like a when companies say we are a diverse company they mean they want to fill in a gender gap which is woman and mostly white woman so diversity can be quite tricky for in Berlin or New York that you have 30 people that comes from such a diverse background, many people coming from places, running from wars, or a refugee that's super complicated, psychologically speaking, it is hard to address. So during the narrowing, which things do you think that both Berlin and New York chapters are doing that you think kind of help to bring diversity, which this big bucket into helping people improve their lives, especially getting into technology.

Speaker 5 [45:38]

Do you want to go first? Sure. I think right now in New York, specifically in PyLadies, one of the organizers that does a lot of the groups is really involved in the sober movement. How many people have gone to a tech meetup at a bar? That's kind of been the common quid pro quo. And I do know that the New York chapter is really prioritizing making sure that events are sober events in many times, which I think is very important. We don't talk about that enough. um other things that i've seen happening specifically in new york um and just not in the pie ladies chapter but in other groups um new york did it get a very bad rap everybody if you missed the whole thing about the wing and the white woman girl boss thing um that was a whole thing in new york and that was a huge part of many women in tech were involved through the wing or which was a huge huge thing and i mean i got a scholarship together and it was a it was a thing For those of you who aren't aware, the wing was a co-working space targeting women specifically, and it had the pink branding and the cute coffee cups and the Instagrammable workspace, but not surprisingly, it targeted primarily white women, and they found out later that they were stealing work from interns and not paying their employees fairly, and many service workers were service workers of color rather than actually representing a more realistic population of the world. And when we think about things, it's really being aware of what stories are getting told and elevated and why. I think the other thing, are you telling it to make yourself seem cool and diverse? Are you telling it because it's a story told? And putting on my former journalist hat here, that's an editorial discretion decision, which outlines kind of the values and ethics of the companies and the group that you're organizing with.

Speaker 4 [47:31]

For the Berlin chapter, I think what we all try to do is create safe spaces and also create a sense of community somehow. But it is also true that in the Berlin chapter, for example, we are also predominantly white. And I think we can also do a lot better, also for all kinds of diversity, also for people people with disabilities, for example, or mothers, like we recently started talking more about we want childcare, for example, if people want to bring their kids and stuff in the evening. So I think we do some stuff and we try, but we can also there are a lot more things we can do, and it's also like if anybody of you wants to join PyLadies at at some point, we need help.

Speaker 6 [48:28]

help

Speaker 4 [48:29]

And we need more diverse people as well, we need people with different views and opinions to bring in these ideas and also say, hey, have you thought about this group, or do we maybe want to create a safe space for these people now?

Speaker 5 [48:50]

One thing I liked here is like the we're all still working. We're all works in progress There's always there's something I could be doing better probably every day every minute like We're all works in progress and don't be afraid to do things perfectly And I think going back to tactics to kind of bounce off one thing And it's maybe a pet peeve of mine is I am and I will take the notes And I hate being called the secretary in a meeting and coming from a non-technical background around, and they were like, oh, you'll learn to code because you took notes on the meeting. And I'm like, no, I do not need to remember your follow-up or your coffee order. I don't care. Sorry. Can't even remember my own. But if you're looking for a simple tactic, take the notes, dudes. Sorry. Or don't. Or like pass it around. Pass the baton around of who takes the notes in the meeting. Share a Google Doc. Sorry, that's pet peeve. If you touch this, that's a... Tactics that are pet peeves.

Speaker 1 [49:42]

Of course.

Speaker 2 [49:43]

Gosh, we are about six minutes to end this, and we have really amazing start popping up questions. Before addressing at least a few of them, I would like to ask you to join PyLadies. It's not a place for women. It is a place to improve the world around us, and that support more women to have their voices and the spaces and leadership. That means we do need allies and allies is the other thing that we need to talk more. If you don't know how to start Parladies Berlin in our github repository we are adding resources for self-education so you can start understanding better what are all those discussions about and this is the first step. You educating yourself and understanding your own bias and where to get started because this has been there's a lot of good documentation out there and interesting I just want to point it out that although I think everyone in this panel a big part of our careers is due to this community work part of if we'd like a visual percentage probably more than half of the people do think when we were voting that it is it's bad for your career to be involved with advocacy, with diversity advocacy. So this is an interesting to think, right? Like although I depend my career on it, there's some part of me that thinks that that ruins my career. That's interesting. The other part is that we do have some own bias involved when you think about diversity as a bad thing. Although we all recognize that that that's a very systemic issue so a lot of open to discussion I would like to keep those questions and work on it at least in the Berlin chapter maybe we can start a discussion read it or some point I will point it out it's like because the questions are great I will put in the most voted ones for you to quickly put your thoughts it is how do you handle the dilemma of not always wanting to be the one in interviews, presentations, etc. versus still encouraging fellow woman to join the industry. I believe this is a question about like you don't want to be talking about it but you still want to advocate for other women.

Speaker 5 [52:20]

recommend someone yeah like if you know someone's really passionate about it recommend someone else I've done that I've like been like pass the mic um or um write a note and send it to your male colleagues if you don't feel comfortable I've done that before too I've been like tired of answering this dumb question can you please pass it

Speaker 4 [52:41]

So one-on-one I think is also good, so you don't have to publicly sit on a stage and talk about stuff. You can one-on-one talk to people as well. You can be an ally in private.

Speaker 2 [52:51]

What can I do as a white male in the tech industry to make you feel like you belong, you can be yourself, and enable you to continue the dialogue? That's a lovely question. Well, I can say for, like, my personal manager is very heavy advocate, and what he does is It's like using his privilege to make sure, for example, everyone in the team has the same payment, equal payment, for example. Even if the transparency salary is not part of the company politics, he makes sure without saying that everyone is equal and having the same opportunities. So using your privilege is a good way to get started and offering the space for the others to have the voice. So providing the spotlight for someone that needs to have their voice up. And we talk a lot about sponsorship. It's a term that goes around a lot during the diversity advocate.

Speaker 1 [54:01]

Side row.

Speaker 2 [54:02]

Not just mentor but the cherry and bring the people into the table to talk. This is the best thing you can do use your privilege

Speaker 3 [54:10]

Yep.

Speaker 4 [54:11]

Because I also, so I think this is super important, but also speaking up if you see something

Speaker 3 [54:11]

Is that on this? Yep. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah.

Speaker 4 [54:18]

that's going wrong.

Speaker 3 [54:19]

Okay.

Speaker 4 [54:20]

So an easy example is like people being catcalled on the street, for example.

Speaker 3 [54:20]

All right. I'm going to turn it over to her. Okay. Yep. Sorry. Sorry.

Speaker 4 [54:25]

Like if women can't really say anything about it, because you will just get like really

Speaker 3 [54:26]

Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 4 [54:31]

bad responses back, but men can.

Speaker 3 [54:32]

All right. All right. All right.

Speaker 4 [54:34]

And like in a lot of settings where things are happening that are not right, if you see

Speaker 3 [54:35]

All right. Okay. Okay.

Speaker 4 [54:38]

something like that, say it, because as a cis man you have more authority to say something against other cis men.

Speaker 5 [54:47]

Like that was it happens in the workplace like yeah, you know that was Dorian's idea Like it was really badass like we should Recommend her like next time

Speaker 1 [54:56]

Yeah, I also wanted to share something. So when I first joined Mozilla, my last name is Nguyen. It's a very common Vietnamese last name, N-G-U-Y-E-N. It's very common, but it's very hard to pronounce. And when I was introduced in a team meeting to like, oh, hey, we just hired Lynn, which is my first name, and then my last name was left out because people couldn't pronounce it. So the person who introduced me didn't really say it. Compare that to another team meeting, also my first time showing up at that meeting. The person who led that meeting, like two days before the meeting, emailed me a long email explaining, okay, this is the research that I've done to figure out how to pronounce your last name. I've seen these two YouTube videos, are you from the north or are you from the south? Because the south is pronounced differently than the north and all of that. And that, to me, shows a genuine curiosity about where I'm from, who I am, and my identity. And back to the point we said earlier, it's not about getting it right. It's about making a safe space. And by you, just, I guess, just be curious. Just, like, if there's someone at your company, on your team, that's, like, from a minority background, go talk to them. Ask them about who they are. Like, their name, their hobbies, their interests, their culture, everything. Like, you really show them that you're interested in them and you want them to be here in this space. And you want to do whatever possible to make them feel like they're part of the group. then that to me is the best way that you could do as a white male, as the majority, right? Just be curious in who I am, in who your teammate is. But yeah.

Speaker 2 [56:55]

The hour is over. I'm very sad about that, but I want to appreciate a lot. Thank you, the panel, for sharing your personal stories. This is a super valid and personal, so thank you a lot. Thank you, everyone, for being in this space. I believe that you're interested on, and this is super valuable as well. Thank you, the organization, for giving us the spotlight and the space to have those discussions. And I hope we can follow through with that.

Speaker 4 [57:22]

And thank you for for doing the panel with us

Speaker 1 [57:27]

You did an amazing job. A lot of invisible work.

Speaker 2 [57:29]

And please, the person who wrote the question will get this book, so look for me. If you don't want to be here right now, look for me, I have the book. The person who wrote, what can I do as a white male in the tech industry to make you feel you belong? You can be yourself and enable you to continue the dialogue. You got a book.